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In today’s podcast, we are talking to Zentangle and floral artist Anna Zubarev. Anna creates the most beautiful floral designs. Watch her timelapse on Instagram and you will be mesmerised by her process. Anna shares: the lightbulb moment of discovering Zentangle, developing her own floral-inspired style, creating a range of colouring books and evolving into digital art alongside creating by hand.
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Connect with Anna
Twitter @AnnaLZubarev.
Instagram @ZentangleArtStory
Anna’s Colouring Books
Coloring book 3
Coloring book 2
Coloring Book 1
Podcast Transcription
Sandra Busby: First of all, Anna, I really want to just say how much we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us today. And I’d love to know Firstly, a little bit about where you’re based and what you do? You just mentioned actually, just before we click the record button that you immigrated to America, so I’m interested to know where you were based before then?
Anna Zubarev: So first and foremost, I’m Anna Zubarev and I’m extremely happy, and very humbled to be interviewed by you two ladies. I love Tara Roskell and Sandra, you are wonderful artists as well. So my quick story in a nutshell. So 1992, we emigrated my family and I from Belarus. This is the country where I was born. And I’ve lived there up until I was 16 years of age. And then we emigrated to New York, and I’ve lived in New York for 30 years. Last summer we moved from New York to North Florida, just about South of Jacksonville. Jacksonville is the biggest city in Florida, we’re in the suburbs of Jacksonville. So that’s a quick week really super quick story in a nutshell.
Tara Roskell: I envy your weather apart from the hurricanes.
Sandra Busby: Well, we’re having one of those at the moment by the look of it outside.
Anna Zubarev: So we’ve been here almost a year and a lot of my neighbors and people that live here many years they said specifically this area, Hurricane tend to start obviously in Bahamas and then it moves through Miami, and a little bit of on that east side of Florida. And then then it goes directly to the Carolinas. So most of the time it passes by this particular area. So I want to say we really chose a great spot. And the reason why we chose this area is because of the phenomenal schools. So all the schools here are top rated ‘A’ and so we have two kids, I have a girl who’s 15 years old, she’s an artist itself. So I’m very proud about that. And a boy who is loving and so naturally we live for our kids, so that was the sole and main decision why we wanted to get away from insanity and just live suburbia-ish life. The weather’s very nice too.
Tara Roskell: So when did you start drawing and how have your ideas and your style changed or developed over time? And have you drawn other styles as a Zentangle?
Anna Zubarev: So my art journey began in 2018, when I was literally drawing every single day. Back in school days, I remember I would do it all the time. I would be on the phone for a long period of time on hold, I would grab a post-it and just start doodling. This was nothing like that, it was serious.
Sometimes on the weekend, I will grab a pencil or a pen and start creating something. that will be abstract kind of lock lines and nothing specific, like abstract infinity elements that will loop each other. So that was my style throughout the years.
Now in 2018, I was looking for a path and again, just to give you an idea, I’ve worked many years in the corporate world and 9-5 And that was a sad, not sad moment of my life, when I really did not see the freedom that life would like really had to offer. And 2012, my JOB just over broke Job had ended and my husband said listen, I know you be mom. You take care of the kids become a mom.
Since 2012, my husband and I have been working from home, my husband has started to work from home. In 2014 he quit his corporate job. Then in November of 2018, I had an epiphany moment in my life. And I discovered the Zentangle movement.
Zentangle is an American method of drawing, which not only promotes concentration and creativity, but at the same time increases personal well-being. This is what Zentangle true style of Zentangle really means. In November of 2018, when I’ve discovered Zentangle, I ordered myself a book and I decided to learn a little bit more about it, how these elements are created? And there are specific rules people follow to create those shapes and patterns. Now, for me, I think for the first part of 2019, I tried my very best to kind of simulate if you will, not replicate or copy those Zentangle elements. But I wanted to learn anything and everything all about that.
Then within time, flowers are a big thing in my life, I love to draw flowers naturally. And you’ll see that throughout my artworks. And I wanted to mix and match between Zentangle and florals along with artworks. So I did not want to do what everybody else was doing in the Zentangle world. I wanted to free flow. Let’s say if I see a Zentangle element, I wanted to create my own style from that. And that kind of how I’ve discovered my current style of what I create.
©Copyright Anna Zubarev
Sandra Busby: Did you teach yourself art in general? Did you go to art school?
Anna Zubarev: No, I did not. Everything I create today is self-taught.
Tara Roskell: So just a quick question. When you’re doing a Zentangle they talk about this Zen state, do you get in a meditative state do you think?
Anna Zubarev: I do. My way of creating or going into my space, my creative space, I call it that. My Zen moments is usually after 9pm actually, that’s when my creativity wakes up. And I’m not being bothered by anybody, I don’t have to cook, I don’t have to serve being a mom. And I don’t have to do anything else besides put on my sound blocking headphones and have my sketchbook in front of me, have my best pens that I use to create these floral Zentangle inspired creations and I just go into this really Zen space. I just free flow most of the time and whatever you you’ve seen me create, specifically whatever it is, I post on Instagram, the majority of this is free flow style, or I get inspired from some element that I see it, but the majority, the rest of it will be kind of free flow.
Tara Roskell: So you mentioned before that you’re drawn to flowers, is that certain types of flowers? Are there other things that you’re drawn to as well?
Anna Zubarev: No, most of my stuff is floral based botanicals and leaves. I never was excited to create human figures faces or animal figures or faces. Those things have never attracted a spark of my creativity. I do love landscapes a lot.
I am a nature lover, right I love to hike. I love to walk in nature. I love the water. I’m a sucker for a great view. And I have a ton of photography pictures that I’ve taken. I’ve not shared them here on Twitter or on my Zentangle Instagram account. I do have a personal account where from time to time when we do get to travel or whenever we get to, go somewhere and I see beautiful landscape views or a sunset or whatever. I just take a picture bazillion of them and just keep it on my phone.
So, a lot of times, flowers have been the biggest inspiration for me. And I don’t think there’s one single picture that I’ve not created based on the flora theme. I might have a pattern look, I’ve repeated a parrot pattern. But again, majority of my designs are flower based.
I also love to garden, that’s another hobby of mine. And last few weeks, I’ve been happily working on my front yard where I’ve planted some flowers.
Tara Roskell: So your flower pictures in your photos, do you actually use those for reference or, or is that just inspiration?
©Copyright Anna Zubarev
Anna Zubarev: Not all the time, just few. Several weeks ago, we drove to Panama City Beach, Florida. And that’s about four hour drive from where we currently live. And I’ve happened to come across of this yellowish, kind of like a daisy looking flower. And the petal petals of that flower were all bent down, which was very, very uncommon for a flower, for what I’ve seen, at least. So that flower was actually one of my biggest inspiration. And I’m like, I just have to recreate it in my own way and I have. So a lot of times, I would skip the idea of recreating what I see. But I think unconsciously or subconsciously, those things, those images that I see throughout the day inspire my work. And again, I am happy to say that there’s so many florals around me. And beautiful landscape pictures are all around me alive when whenever I get on my bike I see it. Right now in my neighborhood. There’s a bunch of magnolias are blooming and they’re beautiful flowers. So I am considering recreating that magnolia. I’ve shared that recently on my Twitter, and that this is what I’m aiming for.
I have to be honest with you and say, I would have to be super inspired by a flower to recreate it. The majority of the times, I’m not. I really want to see and dig deeper inside of my imagination and see what else I can come up with.
Tara Roskell: So you sound like to me like you’d never get stuck, because it’s all about the flow. But I’m just wondering, do you ever have a creative block or artists block? And if you do, how do you get over that?
Anna Zubarev: I do get to those points of my life. Like, for instance, when the war between Russia and Ukraine started, I was extremely devastated to say the least because it’s my people. Belarus is the country that is neighboring with Russia and Ukraine. And unfortunately, I could never even fathom in my worst nightmare, that brother will be killing a brother. That’s what really this is to me, so when this had happened in February, I went into this roadblock. And for several days, I couldn’t even bring myself to look at my sketchbooks or look at something.
Whenever I need a moment of an inspiration, I go through my old drawings. And I see what else I can come up with. Literally I scroll through the memory lane, flip through the memory relay, and go through my images and see what I can come up with. And a lot of times I see something different that could have been done differently and I go at it. And another thing I was going to say which is really interesting, it really bugs my mind. Let’s say if I wanted to replicate something that I’ve created before, it just never happens. I could never replicate my own work. And I don’t know why is that but it’s just like my mind does not work is a carbon copy, if you will, trying to copy and paste you know what I mean?
Sandra Busby: It’s the same for me. Actually, I couldn’t replicate anything I do. And I don’t think many artists could do.
Anna Zubarev: Yeah, so that’s a really funny thought for sure for all of us.
Sandra Busby: So if somebody was new to art and wanting to have a go at Zentangling if that’s a word, how would you suggest they start?
Anna Zubarev: Google or Pinterest. Pinterest is a phenomenal platform. We all think Pinterest is a social media style social media. Pinterest is actually known as a bookmarking tool. Pinterest is a phenomenal resource for learning anything and everything. So again, first and foremost, go on Google, start searching for Zentangle images, then I would also recommend for those of you that do use Pinterest, go on to Pinterest and start searching for Zentangle images and take it from there.
Right now Pinterest has allowed for a lot of artists, including myself to create short videos like a 15, 30 second videos, where you can actually learn by seeing what you see in front of you and kind of get a spark of ideas from those videos. That would be tremendously helpful to anyone and I post on my Instagram terrenos.
I post on my Instagram videos every other day, except I don’t post on weekends, because that’s my sacred time. And I just take a break. But my best advice for anyone who wants to learn more about Zentangle, Google or Pinterest, those two places should be your natural resource guide.
©Copyright Anna Zubarev
Tara Roskell: Do you think that you need to be able to draw to do Zentangles?
Anna Zubarev: Nope, not at all. Listen, people think they cannot draw. But I always say anyone who’s anyone can draw. If you remember this cartoon, animated movie Ratatouille. And the rat was the little chef that he was, and the imaginary chef, whatever his name was would always say in his books “anyone can cook”. Well, is the same story here. If you only put your mind to it, you can establish anything you can accomplish anything. And frankly, it takes a lot of patience. Funny enough, I’m not the most patient person. I don’t have patience for anything being the New Yorker that I am. However, this I can go for hours. I could literally wake up have my meal, and go at it until late that’s how much patience I have for this and how much passion I have for this.
Tara Roskell: Sandra, did you hear that, anyone can cook?
Sandra Busby: Any one apart from me. Actually, I’ve just been commissioned to paint a fried egg of all things and my only fear about painting the fried egg isn’t painting it. It’s the fact I’ve got to cook it. I’m not burn it.
Anna Zubarev: Let me give you a piece of advice about cooking. The thing about cooking is actually not taking your eyes off of that.
Sandra Busby: My husband always says that when I cook, it’s always ready when the fire alarm goes off.
Anna Zubarev: There you go.
Sandra Busby: I’m just so easily distracted, that’s the problem.
Tara Roskell: It’s not your school report as well.
Sandra Busby: All on my school report.
Anna Zubarev: Then you can always set a timer for it.
Sandra Busby: Do you know what I could do? I could actually just ask Paul to fry the egg for me, the safest bet.
Tara Roskell: So Anna, what are your favorite creative tools? I know you talked about different pens and stuff on your Instagram. But as well as that note books or apps or stuff that you like?
Anna Zubarev: So I’m gonna give you this visual. So I have a space in my house. There’s a room and I’m calling this office/creative space. And this creative space. I have a desk, and on it stands my laptop, my stand for my phone, and on the side a pullout table. I have my iPad, and on that iPad, I have my iPad pencil and within this iPad, I have a single program that I use, one single thing it is Procreate.
Adobe products are great. However, they are for professional people, for people that can be taught how to use them. I could never understand how Adobe products works, Photoshop for example, or Adobe Illustrator and any other programs that have to do with art. So when Procreate came out, and it did not long ago, this was a lightbulb moment for so many people, including myself. And so everything else, every single other digital creation that I make aside from physical drawings, I go to Procreate. I turn to Procreate. It is honestly, it’s the best tool out there. It is the simplest, the easiest navigating tool that you could ever imagine.
©Copyright Anna Zubarev
Sandra Busby: And you’ve got that lovely Undo button, which you don’t have when you’re drawing by hand. So tell me, do you have a preference then if you had to? If you could only do it one way, would you do it digitally or would you do it by hand? Because to me, I’ve tried Procreate and you are right. If you want to learn it, it’s pretty easy to learn. However, for me, it feels completely different than drawing by hand. How do you find that?
Anna Zubarev: So everything in life is about perspective. And it’s all about matter of getting used to it and pushing yourself outside of the box of getting used to certain things. For me, since I’ve adapted into creating digital art. First and foremost, I used a different brush, before I used a studio pen, which was my go to pen. A few months ago, I came across this girl who introduced me to how to edit my brush. She told me I should use a technical pen. And I should actually edit certain ways the way the span reacts to things. So what I would suggest is play around with settings of each brush.
Go on YouTube or even Instagram, find those Procreate creators that create in a similar style to yours. And then say, please can I DM you. Let me ask you a question about what kind of brush pen they use in their art. And if they have edited the settings. Because listen, how else would we learn to do things differently? Like we always will need to evolve and become better versions of ourselves than we were yesterday.
Because Tara, I personally think you can create magic like this beautiful Disney magic on with your artworks. I mean, I’m specifically talking about the artwork we collaborated on that was seriously one of the dopest moments of my life because I got to edit my style with your style. I mean, hey, listen, I don’t even know how many years you put in into art to become who you are today. It really is surreal to me.
Who am I? I’m a girl who have been drawing for the past three years, every single day. I’m self-taught artists. I love it to the core of me to create what I create. And when I see your art, Tara, I love those beautiful, kind of cartoonish images that you do. I’m talking about also portraits that you do with those pastels. I think you use pastels to create and smear some of those eyes and I’m like, wow.
Sandra Busby: She use everything. If you could name every art material available in the country or in the world that what goes on her art.
Anna Zubarev: That’s what art is about, art is about expressing yourself and using whatever you can find in your house to go with it, and I love that. I love that because for me for example, I love watercolors. I’m too lazy to put everything in front of me and start doing watercolors. It’s just too much effort for me. I’m lazy when it comes to that stuff, but I’m fascinated with watercolors. At one point in my life. I was trying to figure out how to create what I have created a beautiful artwork based on a lesson that I’ve learned on YouTube. And I’m like, anytime I show this to someone, they’re like, wow, really? You created that? I didn’t know you were an artist.
Tara Roskell: By the way here’s another thing you can try if you love watercolors. Have you tried Watercolor Brush Pens yet?
Sandra Busby: Yeah, I reckon they would work really well for Zentangle.
Anna Zubarev: I did try. I tried so many different brushes. But because my line works are so precise it would be all over the place and I don’t want to ruin it.
Tara Roskell: Yeah, that’s true. So can you share any books people or courses that have inspired you creatively?
Anna Zubarev: Actually, I have a few people that inspired me tremendously. So there is this artist. His name is Kirby Rosanes. I think he’s from Indonesia, or Malaysia, I always confused the two countries and I know they’re different but they are somewhere there. He creates the most amazing ink drawings he was the first one actually that I came across that also makes coloring books. And he creates phenomenal stuff. He’s artistic ways are for me, next level. I think maybe in 20 years I’ll become what he creates. But I’m slowly and surely believe in myself. And I’m slowly and surely getting there.
Another person who is extremely creative, she’s actually has a little bit different style to what I would want to create. But Johanna Basford, she’s phenomenal Coloring Book Creator. Definitely recommend anyone who’s anyone to go and follow her journey, she creates beautiful coloring books.
Another person is Jenna Rainey. She is a California girl, she creates watercolors, she was my watercolor go to person. I’ve ordered a book from her, which I gave it to my daughter who was doing watercolour at the time. Now my daughter, all she wants to do is create digital art. And she loves anime, and she creates her own virtual kind of world of those animes. She created an artwork for me using pastels, of nature. And I hope to share that soon.
I don’t want to overwhelm my social media with so much of everything from all walks of life. So I like the consistency, how my flow is going. But I’ve been too busy to share a lot more than I could. But those three people have definitely played a big role in my life when it comes to art, creativity and inspiration.
Sandra Busby: Can you tell us about the colouring books that you sell?
Anna Zubarev: In my first year, when I started to draw, some of the people that I came across on social media, that follow me would always give me compliments on my artwork, even though I think they were very immature at the time when compared to what it is right now. And so many people came in to say, Oh my God, your artworks would be just the perfect thing to be in a coloring book. And I would love to create that. So in a year from the time when I started to draw, I published my very first book, and then yearly or my second book, and last November, I have created and self-published my third coloring book. So to date, I have three coloring books, and I’m very, very proud of both.
Sandra Busby: Oh yeah, you should be, that’s amazing. Thank you.
Tara Roskell: Where do you get the coloring books on?
Anna Zubarev: Amazon.
Yes, for those of you that are listening to this and would be interested to know, you could go to Amazon and just find Zentangle art story. I have three coloring books there, or you can find it on my Instagram. The link is there also Zentangle art story.
Coloring book 3
Coloring book 2
Coloring Book 1
Sandra Busby: So one thing Tara and I have been talking about doing a lot more of recently, which we still don’t because I think we’re shy. It is a live Instagram videos. You a drawing chat with other artists. So how did that idea come about?
Anna Zubarev: I have created several Instagram lives before they were very popular and I saved them into my Instagram, there’s folders where I can save them and then like, also I had this moment, and Jason Chambers was the very first person that I did my Instagram Live when I had another person. We actually chat like on the on a monthly basis. Jason Chambers is a good friend of mine now. From just conversing with him, I have this light bulb moment. And I’m like, Jason, why don’t we create an Instagram Live where you can draw, I do my thing, you do your thing, and we’ll continue the conversation.
Sandra Busby: So this is with Jason every time, is that?
Anna Zubarev: No, no, no, Jason was the first one.
Tara Roskell: That was so good to watch because you seemed really relaxed
Anna Zubarev: It’s important for me to get to know that person before. Like you see you already know what to ask because you guys know a little bit about me. So same can be said the same story can be said about the person you’ll be having on your Instagram Live once you decide to do that. For me, the second person was Jesse Doyle who I also met on Instagram slash Twitter. And we’ve mingled many times on Twitter spaces. So when he reached out right after I had Jason’s Instagram live, little did I know that people would appreciate this kind of a thing. When Jesse reached out to me I’m like, Okay, let’s do it. Next Friday, let’s go.
And then two weeks later, I had a guy from Mexico, whose English is not perfect. He and I also went off and created different styles. And I’m looking forward to my next one, but like the next one, most likely it’s going to be back in August. Because right now I’m going to take a break. And this summer we are going back to New York not New York City but Upstate New York, which is about two and a half hours away from New York City we have a second house and we’re going to spend our summer time in there with the kiddos until school restarts here.
When I come back to Florida I’m I’m gonna probably make a schedule and start doing these fun kind of Instagram lives. I don’t do it if it’s not fun. I do it because it is fun. For me, it would be fun to watch. Let’s say Tara created her thing. And you Sandra, do your thing on the other window. It’s fascinating to hear people talk just have a conversation.
Tara Roskell: We managed to sketch together don’t we
Sandra Busby: We do.
Anna Zubarev: I think you and I should definitely go off do that live thing together. Just get ready for a little chit chat.
Sandra Busby: She’s trying to poach you now Tara? I can feel my half of Kick in the Creatives disappearing.
Tara Roskell: I will have to get some fake nails because I have bitten mine down really badly and yours are beautiful.
Sandra Busby: You really need to sort that out.
Tara Roskell: So Anna, I connected with you on Twitter and you were selling NFT’s art. I’m really curious, how did you first get into selling those NFT’s?
Anna Zubarev: Last February of 2021, Jason Chambers approached me and he’s said listen, Anna, you have to give it a try, you really, really do. We were in a mix of moving from state to state, and it’s a big deal to move. I’m a very consistent person, and you already know that. And in my life it’s the same way. We lived in an apartment/flat in your language. We’ve lived in a flat for the past 18 years. So for us, it was life changing to move from New York to Florida. And we were in a process of packing up and planning everything, it was very not easy. So I said to Jason, listen, when I come back to Florida, this should be the very first thing we do.
And that’s exactly what I did. Once we moved here. We settled, I have my computer desk, everything is ready. And I’m like, okay, Jason, I need a lesson from you. Let’s go, show me what do I need to know? And he onboarded me, he explained so much to me. And he was just a doll, honestly. Because I have such extensive content, I have no problem of putting myself out there. And I don’t have a problem with social media. I’m not a shy person. So for me, social media comes very naturally. And I love to mingle with people.
Twitter, on the other hand, was a platform that I had avoided since 2013. I’ve had an account, but I’ve never really implemented anything with that. So when I came into the NFT space, I needed to understand how Twitter works, and how NFT space works. Social media is all about, not what you can share. But what can you do for others. That’s how I look at social media and it’s definitely a way to connect with an even more broader bunch of people.
On Instagram, only certain people can follow me based on my art, but then with Twitter I get to share and sell my NFT’s. And honestly, for the artists right now, I think it’s a tremendous opportunity to be seen and heard by so such a different audience more than just Instagram. Because let’s just be real. People that actually use Twitter don’t like Instagram, or vice versa. For me, I definitely came across so many more people that I could have not gained a friendship with when I was just on Instagram.
I’m definitely making progress each and every single day. I’m also evolving as an NFT artists because what I create for NFT’s, I don’t create for my physical stuff. I also have to consider the fact that what I create from my physical artworks might not work for NFTS. So I’m working double speed here. Because I create my physical artworks for my coloring books, and my Instagram content and I create digital artworks only exclusively specifically for NFT’s.
Sandra Busby: Interesting. You should say that because, I’ve been having a bash at NFT’s myself, and I said it’s not really working for me personally at all whereas I know for Tara is and I don’t think like realism is really for that. I don’t think that works with NFT’s.
Anna Zubarev: No, no. You know what it is? I’ve had a conversation with someone about this actually, you know what it is? It’s all about who is seeing your art? What I would suggest: I think you’ve been swimming in the same pond for a better word. You’ve been swimming in the same pond, speaking to the same people doing same thing all day, every day for the past several months, weeks on and what I would recommend and start looking for new people to connect with.
Sandra Busby: Yeah, because I was thinking. Well, perhaps I need to work on some different type of art specifically for NFT’s rather than continue to put out. It’s just interesting. I know that you do tend to get to know people, and then kind of it’s finding a friend, isn’t it? And then you sort of stick with?
Anna Zubarev: Exactly. And I don’t mind continue their friendship or relationship with these people, I don’t abandon them. I just continuously look for other ways. Not only try new ways. So one of my mentors back in the days would always say, find something that inspires you, someone that inspires you. Obviously, check their credentials, make sure they’re legit. And see if you can model their success. Find someone that does your style, right over NFT’s and they were successful at it, become a spy of that person. Not in a bad way, become a stalker, but in a good way, try to analyze them. What and how many times a day they post? What kind of content they post? How do they engage with people? What kind of art they create, and how do they do it?
Sandra Busby: It’s so time consuming, isn’t it? The thing I found the hardest part about Twitter unlike Instagram is you feel like you’ve got to post 10 times a day or do a retweet or something. And so it’s kind of like yet another thing to do when I suppose in the end. Well, am I best just creating stuff, it’s a tricky balance, isn’t it? That’s the problem.
Anna Zubarev: It really is a tricky balance, but it’s all about strategy. Again, running successfully your social media accounts, and being an artist, and besides that, you need to do other things. Washing or cooking or, being with your loved ones, you know, there’s life outside of Twitter. So it really becomes on balancing your time wisely and allocating specific times of the day.
Everything takes strategy and discipline. We are artists and have to to be a marketer. Because we need to be all of that, and then some. What I would recommend is creating the schedule and go for it, because running several social media channels for myself requires hard discipline and a strategy. Because you don’t want to be continuously browsing and browsing and browsing while you have other things going on in your life, and other things to do and art to create. So strategy, discipline, and just consistency, those are the most important things would be I would say to me work, it works as a marketer, NFT’s artists, regular coloring book creator, and just me, Anna.
Sandra Busby: So Anna, what are your goals now for the future where your art is concerned?
Anna Zubarev: Well, most importantly, to continue going the same direction become bigger, stronger and better, evolve more as an artist trying new things, as an artist. To continue to do collaborations and continue to self-published my coloring books. My new coloring book is already in works. I already have prepared about 20 images that I still need to edit a little bit and then put it together and submit it for publishing. And that coloring book has to be released somewhere at the end of November, which is the time when I release them. One of my biggest goals probably right now is to collaborate with Jason chambers. He’s a busy man.
Sandra Busby: We had him on the show, actually, and he’s so lovely.
Anna Zubarev: I know and I’ve listened to that show. It was absolutely phenomenal. The way he shared his stories and you know what, in my life, I’m big on storytelling. I love storytelling. It’s just like, you know, you know hearing someone’s story and relating to it from different many aspects of life. We all come from different walks of life, right? We each have a story to tell. And it’s, it’s always fascinated me. He’s a great storyteller, I think. And a brilliant artist, I may add as well. I love his art, I have two of his original artworks and get in my office/creative space. So I love his stuff. And he is a wonderful person.
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